Curse

Missing HB · Aug 09, 2011, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucy Saxon

Yes, get rid of the PVE players. I'm sure the PVP players can easily keep the game going and make ANET money on their own. To be honest, PVP players need PVE players far more than they seem to realise.

We wouldn't miss much to say there would not be much diference today if they removed all PvP... They would lose 5% of players at best, especially QQ'ers....

What's sad though is that whole PvP( except RA maybe but well, that's not PvP... more like casino game) will be empty soon... it's just a matter of time...

The Drunkard · Aug 09, 2011, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

my suggestion is trying to make pver to be more competitive and easing the transitioning for them if they become more wishing to play pvp...

not directly turn them into pvp...because there is not a stable difficulty in the venue of pvp....the varying standard cannot allow new player to see their progression clearer.

How does it transition them when the two are so different in the first place?

You do not learn essential pvp skills or tactics from doing PvE, you barely learn the objectives of pvp from the proph missions and tombs.

Adding rewards for PvE will not make people PvP.

lursey · Aug 09, 2011, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

How does it transition them when the two are so different in the first place?

You do not learn essential pvp skills or tactics from doing PvE, you barely learn the objectives of pvp from the proph missions and tombs.

Adding rewards for PvE will not make people PvP.

at least pvers don't have to think to use consumable, heroes, pve skills, etc...which all have been used in pve but pvp doesn't offer....to actually learn other skills usage...before going to pvp.

reward is just an encouragement.

superraptors · Aug 10, 2011, 12:09 AM // 00:09

maybe they should just make pvp hom statues give better rewards/incentives in gw2 im sure everyone would do some pvp

Silmar Alech · Aug 10, 2011, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reikai

If not already made clear, nothing personal, but you and your PvE ilk are what I (we?) want to get rid of.

I somehow feel you rather wanted to write "scum" instead of "ilk".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reikai

But yes. You do. By having PvE players in this game, it gives the devs an incentive to put resources in the PvE side of the game, and not the PvP side of the game.

A very selfish attitude, if I'm allowed to make this kind of remark. Arenanet put both parts in the game and shows no intentions of removing one, so we are going to deal with both parts. I does not help the game to wish me going away. It will not happen. Not from my side, not from Arenanet's side. It's nothing you can influence. I suggest you try to find a solution that let both sides live and prosper. That's much more productive.

Reikai · Aug 11, 2011, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmar Alech

I somehow feel you rather wanted to write "scum" instead of "ilk".

Yes.... you are getting the picture. Sub-human scum >=]. You don't deserve to exist and we shall crush you under the heel of the PvP master race =D! (incase smileys are not indicative enough, this is nothing personal >.>)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmar Alech

A very selfish attitude, if I'm allowed to make this kind of remark. Arenanet put both parts in the game and shows no intentions of removing one, so we are going to deal with both parts. I does not help the game to wish me going away. It will not happen. Not from my side, not from Arenanet's side. It's nothing you can influence. I suggest you try to find a solution that let both sides live and prosper. That's much more productive.

Yes it is. It is a very selfish attitude.
Yes, it perhaps doesn't help the game for me wishing PvE-only players would go away. However, it sure doesn't hurt it. Cut down the fat, and leave what really matters. Makes things much more efficient.

MithranArkanere · Aug 12, 2011, 12:37 AM // 00:37

PvE players are not 'the fat'. They are the ones paying the bills, so they are more like the stomach.
Not many PvP-only players, if any, would get mercenaries, costumes, bonus weapons packs, the imp, extra storage slot...
Why would they pay for something they don't need?

Removing or limiting anything 'PvE' only hurts the game itself, since the stomach feeds the whole body, so the brain can go on dreaming.

urania · Aug 12, 2011, 11:00 AM // 11:00

and yet, a body without the head is nothing but a lump of meat.

fowlero · Aug 12, 2011, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Not many PvP-only players, if any, would get mercenaries, costumes, bonus weapons packs, the imp, extra storage slot...
Why would they pay for something they don't need?

Where'd you get that from?

I know a large proportion of the PvP community that do use microtrans (I have everything you listed), extra slots/makeover/unlock packs are pretty common. Plus you're ignoring the fact that a good number of PvP players still PvE (the two aren't mutually exclusive, many players i know have gwamm). Then plenty of PvE players that have never spent a penny.

I doubt the ratio of those who do/don't buy anything is as different to PvE as you'd expect. It may seem that way because those who haven't shout louder than those who have.

If you're gonna argue about money use solid facts, like the PvE population (now) being much larger.

In any case i don't think either being removed would ever be a good idea, both are a great part of the game.

MithranArkanere · Aug 12, 2011, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Players that do both PvE and PvP are not "PvP-only", they are both PvE and PvP players, in other words: "PvX".

A PvP-only player is one that rejects PvE so much that they'll get the PvP unlock pack, but not the campaigns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

and yet, a body without the head is nothing but a lump of meat.

That's so obvious that there's no need to point it out.

Reverend Dr · Aug 12, 2011, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Protip: Almost 100% of the PvP-only packs sold were bought by people with the full game as secondary accounts, or as a way to get back into the game after a permaban. Almost without exception PvP players also do PvE. Buying the PvP-only account was itself a microtransaction.

LuckyGiant · Aug 12, 2011, 10:47 PM // 22:47

I've briefly skipped over the first 4 pages.

My solution: Mentor program

Firstly let me say it myself, its probably too late in the game for something like this to get implemented, however late in the game is where a solution like this would thrive. The basic idea here is experienced pvp players could register on an in game database of mentors. Mentors would click a button called 'activate me as a mentor' and carry on with their gaming as usual until called.

Mentors would need to be organised and come up with a team build specifying the list of 8 professions they require and the profession they will be playing. Also would need to be organised enough to have equipment and skill templates for each role. These templates probably need to be entered into the system to prove the mentor has everything ready.

PvErs or people starting out in pvp simply select the professions they can play and click a button called 'seek mentor'. These buttons can be clicked from anywhere in the guild wars world (except pvp) and you can carry on playing while waiting so has the huge advantage as new players are not sitting around waiting for players or coming up with a build.

Suddenly when 7 people have clicked this button each person receives a message saying 'you're needed as a profession X' [accept]/[decline]. If you decline because you want to finish what you're doing you need to re-register as 'seeking mentor' and you go to the bottom of the waiting list.

If you click [accept] regardless of what profession you are playing you are given a deault 'profession X disguise' based on the profession you were given to bring. This eliminates the problem of rerolling. The disguise also sets your skills and weapons as specificed by the mentor's templates.

When 7 people have clicked this you are automatically teleported to an outpost (HA/Codex probably best) and the group is assigned a mentor who are teleported to the outpost too.

For this to work properly, each account would need a 'Mentor rank' to prevent experienced people from making a team and grabbing a mentor. This 'Mentor rank' would be a non-displayable title track the is either below threshold or at the threshold (eg: 100 matches or whatever). Once 'Mentor rank' reaches [threshold] you can no longer be mentored and hopefully have had a sucessful introduction into pvp and continue with a friends list you've built up from people you've had a good time with over the past 100 matches. Mentored groups (including mentor) receive double title points or something for beating non-mentor groups - a decent reward on top of the great sense of achievement.

Mentor system advantages:
- no barriers to entry for pvp
- no waiting for setup
- no elitism as everyones at the level
- quickly builds new players a friends list with like minded people
- players should improve fast under a mentor providing a good base for afterwards

Mentor system disadvantages:
- heavily reliant on the mentor (organised, honest, helpful)
- no vent chat system (really a necessity when teaching, team chat is difficult to organise)
- people raging the team after a loss (relies on people wanting to improve via the mentor system, not use it to farm titles - this should be done after)

Anyhow some food for thought, I'm sure theres plenty of ways to improve the mentor system so its as easy to use and effective as possible at transitioning new pvp players.

doomfodder · Aug 15, 2011, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vezoth

The problem with PvP is both 1) titles, and 2) randomness

What needs to be done is make GvG have epicness rewards and make people WANT those rewards, even those currently in PvE.

... it can be picked up by giving people a reason too.

/agree

structure creates behavior. ANET can just restructure the incentives. If you build it, people will come.

Why is RA more popular than HA or GvG (check the logs - more different people play it AND those that play it also play it more often)? I submit that the answer is because it is unstructured. It's NOT JUST because RA is low end PvP (perfect for the casual PvPer), but ALSO because there is virtually no wait (although I do see timer restarts 1 out of every 10-15 launches). Who enjoys spending available game time just team forming & waiting for matches to start. Imperial faction changed player behavior for the JQ/FA/AB crowd to minimize wait times. Shouldn't SOMETHING be done for wait times in the structured PvP realm?

Titles only "inhibit" PUG formation creating an "easily perceptible" answer to the unspoken question in the minds of the party leader/members - is that random player good enough or not good enough to be on my team? In a practical sense, titles serve as a sorting mechanism and nothing more.

But, throw the symbolic meaning of titles to the wind for a moment.... Imagine if HA were "structured" so that you could bring more hench or even heros (yes there are consequences to this suggestion) AND that automatic matches would then be arranged based on the number of heros in your party. 0 hero teams vs 0 hero teams, 2 hero teams vs 2 hero teams, 4 hero teams vs 4 hero teams etc.... IF there were an insufficient number of appropriate matches, the next closest number of heros would be matched. Suddenly more people playing = less wait times. Fame WOULD be adjusted to award more fame for more humans on the team (creating incentive for full human teams) in order to assist those players that are required to have titles in order to be picked up on future PUGS.

Imagine if GvG had more hench or even heros (ONLY FOR NON-TOURNEYS). Then people would say it's CRAP because no one like to lose to AI. But at lease MORE people would play....

TL

R ANET please adjust the Structered PvP incentives to draw the casual PvPer into the venue.

Still Number One · Aug 15, 2011, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyGiant

My solution: Mentor program

Mentor programs have been done. They don't work. Too few people can leave their ego at the door and actually acknowledge their mistakes and work to better themselves. Most of the time, the players being mentored get a big head and stop listening to the mentors, and even argue with them. This obviously upsets the mentor and gives him no reason to continue mentoring players if they aren't going to respect his knowledge and experience and listen to what he is trying to teach.

New players can't get into PvP because far too many of them come into it with the attitude that they are better than their experience shows and they are entitled to greater things. The people that do come in with the right attitude are so few and far between that it becomes next to impossible to form a team with players of the right attitude.

PvP is dead and there is nothing that can be done about it. You can't quickly change the attitude of the people who play the game. It is a slow process, and something we don't have the time to do. You can entice a large number of people to play but PvP doesn't need a large quantity of players. It needs a decent chunk of quality players. Quality players need to be enticed into PvP. But in a 6 year old game, it is safe to say 90% of the players of the right quality have tried and are either still playing or have quit Guild Wars. The ones who quit aren't coming back, and there are no new players to take their place.

Reikai · Aug 16, 2011, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Mentor programs have been done. They don't work. Too few people can leave their ego at the door and actually acknowledge their mistakes and work to better themselves. Most of the time, the players being mentored get a big head and stop listening to the mentors, and even argue with them. This obviously upsets the mentor and gives him no reason to continue mentoring players if they aren't going to respect his knowledge and experience and listen to what he is trying to teach.

New players can't get into PvP because far too many of them come into it with the attitude that they are better than their experience shows and they are entitled to greater things. The people that do come in with the right attitude are so few and far between that it becomes next to impossible to form a team with players of the right attitude.

PvP is dead and there is nothing that can be done about it. You can't quickly change the attitude of the people who play the game. It is a slow process, and something we don't have the time to do. You can entice a large number of people to play but PvP doesn't need a large quantity of players. It needs a decent chunk of quality players. Quality players need to be enticed into PvP. But in a 6 year old game, it is safe to say 90% of the players of the right quality have tried and are either still playing or have quit Guild Wars. The ones who quit aren't coming back, and there are no new players to take their place.

Not to mention mentor program first requires an initiative, and a drive to follow through with that initiative on the part of the student. The way I see it, most players in the game don't even care for PvP, no initiative at all. The only way to make them engage in it is to force it upon them.

Maria The Princess · Aug 16, 2011, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reikai

Unless PvP is forced and not consensual (aka rape), there will always be individuals who avoid PvP at whatever cost. I learned this full well when I played Aion, and carebears just avoided all PvP prone areas at all times, whined about getting ganked, etc.

All PvP games should always have PvP that is not consensual. For example, in the middle of a vanquish, you will be randomly pit against another party that is vanquishing the same area. The losing party will be sent back to the last outpost they were in, having to start the vanquish all over again.

This forces players to either get better competitively, or literally be unable to progress at whatever they are doing. It will force alot of players to quit, perhaps, but these are not the players a PvP game cares for anyway.

optional PvP is basically the death of any PvP game.

/agree

I would love to run in a random pvp

As long as its made open only in HM to allow the underdeveloped toons to get lvl 20 and get to elites etc. Also maybe send them to a res shrine to make the PvP last longer and more of a hunt feel, and make the loosing team have a chance of redeeming themselves

Anything in HM should have a chance of PvP run into. This will make players consider new party builds (that are good for pvp AND pve) and will put a new twist on PvP, with PVE skills

Even in PvP oriented games there are players who dont want anythingto do with it... take Lineage 2 as example. it is a FULLY open pvp game. You can turn around and attack a clannie that is in party and in your friends list and is sitting afk, if you feel like it, no restrictions. Besides killing the same mob over and over (Ok, diffrent mobs, but they are technically all the same there) or do a random raid (not often enough to occupy all your play time) the PvP asxpect of the game is the only excitment.

Yet allot of people insist on killing the same mob, avoid PvP and keep lying to themselves that killing that one same mob for hours is FUN.

Reikai · Aug 16, 2011, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Another thing that "could" facility PvP, is perhaps promote it by providing "broken" PvE-only gear from it.

For example, the current max damage on a bow is 15-28.
However, create PvE-only gear available only from GvGs.
For example, said PvE-only gear would be like a 25-38 damage bow, or a Wand/Focus combo with 80/80.

PvE-only inscriptions or mods that provide +30% damage when health>50%, or +60 HP fotitude mods.

Winning 10 high-end GvGs unlocks an item, Zaishen Armbraces, or whatever, that you can then trade in for these "broken" PvE only items that provide a HUGE advantage in PvE.

Such things would probably be a good enough incentive.

lursey · Aug 16, 2011, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reikai

Another thing that "could" facility PvP, is perhaps promote it by providing "broken" PvE-only gear from it.

For example, the current max damage on a bow is 15-28.
However, create PvE-only gear available only from GvGs.
For example, said PvE-only gear would be like a 25-38 damage bow, or a Wand/Focus combo with 80/80.

PvE-only inscriptions or mods that provide +30% damage when health>50%, or +60 HP fotitude mods.

Winning 10 high-end GvGs unlocks an item, Zaishen Armbraces, or whatever, that you can then trade in for these "broken" PvE only items that provide a HUGE advantage in PvE.

Such things would probably be a good enough incentive.

this will make the original pvper super rich, unless the said items can't be traded through players with pve gold.

Reikai · Aug 16, 2011, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

this will make the original pvper super rich, unless the said items can't be traded through players with pve gold.

Perhaps said Zaishen Armbrace itself cannot be traded, but one may perhaps trade a Zaishen armbrace for... say... a Zaishenplasm, which would be tradable.

The only difference being, that one would need to acquire 100 zaishenplasms to trade back into 1 Zaishen armbrace, and hence, into said PvE weapons.

Missing HB · Aug 16, 2011, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reikai

Another thing that "could" facility PvP, is perhaps promote it by providing "broken" PvE-only gear from it.

For example, the current max damage on a bow is 15-28.
However, create PvE-only gear available only from GvGs.
For example, said PvE-only gear would be like a 25-38 damage bow, or a Wand/Focus combo with 80/80.

PvE-only inscriptions or mods that provide +30% damage when health>50%, or +60 HP fotitude mods.

Winning 10 high-end GvGs unlocks an item, Zaishen Armbraces, or whatever, that you can then trade in for these "broken" PvE only items that provide a HUGE advantage in PvE.

Such things would probably be a good enough incentive.

It will meet few problems :
- some top GvG guilds that everyone knows for not being fair would sync on dead hours to get those items
- they would sell them to people willing to buy those
- some SC's will require players to have such items

Fixing this by making items dedicated could be an option, but then you will see the other problem left with syncing : " WTS place in this guild for syncing , free items only xx ectos "

That's pretty much the problem in this game with the too high rewards today... you can't implement anything without getting the unfair ways of obtaining items....